|
Post by jason hallock on Jul 30, 2009 7:47:38 GMT -5
I've been getting more time for training the last 4-5 weeks and am beginning to realize just how much work I have ahead of me if I'm gonna be ready for some of the meets scheduled for this fall. I have been trying to learn more and have been gradually making changes to my training, getting rid of the old bodybuilding stuff that I've been doing for years-less quad squatting, high rep bench press to failure, etc. I'm doing a lot of box squatting and good mornings-much more focus on posterior chain work. I purchased a set of stretch bands and tried them out last night for the first time-they just about knocked me on by ass my first set coming off the rack. I worked up to parallel box squats with 425 lbs with an extra 125 lbs of band resistance-no belt, wraps or suit.....tough, back and glutes are sore today, but nice not to have sore quads the day after a hard squat workout. My current routine seems to be taking on a real "Westside" flavour....I like the idea of going for new maxes each week on various exercises other than the 3 main lifts. I now understand why so many of you recommended against near max efforts on a regular basis on the 3 big lifts-I can see in my old training logs how performance decreased due to CNS fatigue once my main lifts started getting heavier.
Anyway, my question is....finally.....Does technique on the big three lifts suffer when you don't practice them as often? I find myself itching to "see where I'm at, but I don't want to do this too often, especially if I'm hoping to get to that meet in Sept in the Twin Cities. Should I test all three lifts on the same day, in contest order, should I use belts, wraps, suit or just save that for the meet...OK guys (and Gals)......let's hear what you think.....Jay Hallock
|
|
|
Post by thebruce on Jul 30, 2009 12:00:53 GMT -5
Hi Jay I will leave the answering of your questions to those actually competing. I will say that when I stick to sub maximal training with any movement I am able to keep up the progression. Then when I test I have to dial back and do a period of sub maximal again. This from a guy defiantly not competitive YET!!! I am glad to see you posting and I am interested in what you are doing for training. Did you get another physio to work with yet? I am ready for another round of treatment to coincide with an anticipated test week the week after next.
|
|
|
Post by Harvey on Jul 30, 2009 15:06:10 GMT -5
Hi Jason Think if you use VERY tight gear you have to train in it regularly.I find that the more I wrap my knees the better I get at doing it as well.For deadlifts think you only need a couple workouts a week or 2 out from the contest in gear. Harvey
|
|
|
Post by Guy on Jul 30, 2009 17:27:49 GMT -5
Just to build on what Harv said, it would depend on your gear and the selection of exercises you have made for your max effort movements.
If your gear is super tight and it is hard to hit depth on squats or hard to touch on bench, your time might better served working the weight down through partial movements like high box squats and high board presses down to the range you need to be, to be ready for competition. You need to hit depth on squats and touch on benches in training to be comfortable with those lifts come meet time.
If the max effort movements differ from the main three by a large degree, then yes I would say your form may suffer. If your doing concentric good mornings or zercher squats, they are different than squatting and pulling. I would save those movements for early on in the training cycle, and then move to more specific movements closer to meet time, full gear squats or parallel or below parallel box squats.
For benching you can work your opener hard to your chest, then take your 2nd attempt off a 1 board, and then your 3rd off a 2 board if you feel the need to get those weights in your hands before the contest.
You mentioned you like the idea of trying new maxes on exercises other than the big three, the idea being it will save you from overtraining. It has been my experience that no matter what lift your maxing week in and week out, it will eventually lead to staleness, even if it isn't done on the big three. I followed the traditional westside template for the first few years of my training and I made great gains initially but then things stalled out after about three years. I would go in and bang away every week seeking out new pr's, even just by adding some 2.5's to the bar, but it wasn't happening. Recently when I finally learned a little self restraint I have achieved some of my best gains to date. More specifically on my deadlift. It has always been my favorite lift, so I would train it hard, hitting a heavy dead movement every 2 weeks, whether it be pulls off plates, reverse band deads, rack pulls, whatever, then hit some singles after speed squats and work up to a heavy dead every other week that I wasn't pulling heavy on max effort day, anyways, I did all that and it was stuck at around 650 come meet time no matter what I did. Recently I stopped all the extra pulling and focused mainly on rack pulls either above or below the knee, every 3 weeks, if that. I hit 295 at the CPU nationals, with a bit left in the tank. Then I only pulled from the floor once and did rack pulls maybe 3 times over the course of 6 weeks before I went to montreal, where I hit a pr dead of 320, and followed the same plan before I went to calgary, only hit one rackpull from above the knee, during 4 weeks training, and then went to calgary and hit another pr dead of 327.5.
anyways, as far as testing your maxes before a meet, I would use whatever gear you plan on using at the meet and focus on absolutely destroying your openers, then use special means, such as reverse band work or partial lifts to focus on handling the weight you want to achieve on your 2nd and 3rd attempts, just to give you an idea of where you're at. I would focus on leaving your best lifting on the platform, where it really counts. Nobody cares what you hit in the gym 3 weeks out, it only matters come meet time.
my long winded 2 cents
|
|
|
Post by McLifter on Jul 30, 2009 22:19:02 GMT -5
Excellent thread gentlemen! Guy I like your 2cents, you have learned well and are hitting really nice numbers this year. It is always hard to find out that less can be more come contest day. I think Jason that you have a good base to build from. Using the bands will help add to your strength but they can be really hard on the CNS too. Cycling them in your training will prevent that. What I have found that has worked for me as a Master lifter now is to start off with regular box squats for two weeks, progress to box squats with the chains for two weeks, do a test week, rest and start again with two weeks of box squats with chains and then two weeks of the bands, rest and then test again or compete. Think of doing waves with the added toys. You will need to practice with the gear to be comfortable with it come contest day. It is really a different animal when you are suited up and on the wood in front of the crowd. If you reduce the variables on contest day by knowing how your gear works for you and affects your mechanics you will be better prepared to put up some PRs. With my new squat suit prior to Nationals I was into it for successive workouts after the initial training was done. I used the training for the day as a warm up to put on the monkey suit (especially since it was a different brand and different cut than I had been using previously) and worked up to some easy attempts but simulating contest warm ups and first attempts. This was finished up well out from the contest 2 - 2.5 weeks so that I was well rested and recouperated for the day that mattered. Keep this going as there are a lot of experienced lifters here in Manitoba that can add what has worked for them. McLifter
|
|
|
Post by jason hallock on Jul 31, 2009 8:38:58 GMT -5
Well done gentlemen! Some helpful advice. Bruce and Guy- I hear what you're saying about weekly max effort training.....I see a pattern over the years that whenever I train regularly and very hard for any length of time, eventually the weights get pretty heavy(for me anyway) then things flatten out and I don't seem to make much more progress. So far I'm not back to lifting what I was able to do just before my achilles tear last fall, so there's lots of room to improve and I think I'm making up some lost ground quickly. The challenge will be, as it always is....is to know when to slow down a bit and "make haste slowly"...
As far as contest gear goes, my squat suit isn't the tightest, and I think the box squats are teaching me to sit back into the suit rather than quad squatting. This is why I haven't been training in suits, wraps or even a belt for that matter. I'm less concerned about "learning the suit. " I just don't want to fall into the same old habit of chasing new gym pr's instead of concentrating on bringing up weaker areas. But after about 5-6 weeks of regular training, I'm beginning to have to fight the temptation to suit up and "go for it."
Now I know Harv will be disappointed in me, but I still can't use my bench shirt at all. It's a 46 Katana - quite loose, but I can't touch in training with little weights, and I can't get heavier weights off the rack by myself to practice partials/board presses. I either get choked to death by the shirt, or get thrown out of my groove so bad that both shoulders feel like they are gonna get dislocated...to be honest, I'd rather just bench raw and forget about the shirt all together. I know a raw bench would make me less competitive, but it is my best lift traditionally so for now I thought I'd let the whole "shirt thing" slide at least until I'm raw benching over 400 regularly again. Perhaps I'll have to try to meet up with trev and Harv again for another try with it... Thanks again for the feedback guys, I'll continue to watch the thread for any other suggestions. Jay Hallock
|
|
|
Post by McLifter on Jul 31, 2009 20:45:06 GMT -5
If the shirt is riding up on you Jason try putting a thin belt on to keep the tail from slipping up as you are lowering the weight.
The unfortunate thing about the shirts is that you need partners in order to get the fit right and to handle the weights. Lift offs with a shirt are mandatory with the Max+ weights that are used for the board pressing. Plus there is the safety factor by having some bodies around to help you if you fail a lift.
You have the right idea about getting your raw bench back up to where it was. This will help you immensely with your shirted benches once you get some lifting time in with them.
McLifter
|
|
|
Post by jason hallock on Aug 4, 2009 7:41:00 GMT -5
Hope everyone had a good long weekend. I did no exercise at all - spent lots of time with my wife and kids and ate lots. Current weight-198.2 lbs. I decided to take on some weight yesterday and see just where I am really at. At first I was a bit disappointed that I couldn't lift heavier, but afterwards I realized that these maxes are 89-90% of my previous best lifts. Here goes: Squat-(prevoius best 605 lbs) 135x5 225x5 315x3 405x2 455x2 belt and suit bottoms only (easy) 495x1 knee wraps, belt and straps up (no trouble still fast) 545x1 wraps, straps and belt (tough, but all the way down )
Bench (RAW)(previous best 455 lbs) 135x5 225x5 315x3 (very easy, almost nothing) 365x1 (still fast off the chest) 385x1 (with a long pause even!) 405x1 (barely made it-this is definitely my current raw max)
Deadlift (previous best 585 lbs)
225x3 315x2 405x1 455x1 suit straps up, no belt 495x1 belt and suit straps up (felt OK for lots more yet) 525 x1 belt and straps up (this got heavy fast-this is my max at the moment)
I was pleased that my form on all three lifts didn't really break down much at with any of the lifts. The box squats seem to be helping me sit back in the suit. Although my deadlift may not be that heavy at the moment, this was the first time I felt the suit didn't through me out of the groove on the deadlift.
Now for some advice-how often do you guys go really heavy and on which exercises-how do you guys get used to really big weights if you're always keeping a little bit in reserve? Jay
|
|
|
Post by McLifter on Aug 4, 2009 13:04:39 GMT -5
Jay, that is a 667.5 total for your training. Not too shabby when rehabbing from a torn Achilles.
I know that I do not hit my maxes in training. I will do a training cycle and include a "Test Week" where I will determine where my strength is at for that cycle. It is usually worked into the overall plan in order to help me know what to expect on contest day.
However, I will include some sessions in the gear in order to familiarize myself with the changes to the form that the gear brings on. Also, it is more stressful to the body to get into the gear and I need to use these times to be prepared. Now I know I get into the gear a lot less than some others however, I use the gear training to establish a baseline for what I can expect on contest day. This eliminates one of the variables when the time comes.
McLifter
|
|
|
Post by thebruce on Aug 4, 2009 13:36:24 GMT -5
Impressive lifts Jay. How are you feeling today???
|
|
|
Post by Harvey on Aug 4, 2009 14:15:35 GMT -5
Bruce If it works for you,we are benching Thursday at 6 at Parkwest.If you can make it down will see if you can do your 300. Harvey
|
|
|
Post by jason hallock on Aug 5, 2009 7:35:49 GMT -5
Bruce- it's now been 2 days since my Max gym lifts- I'm pleasantly suprised that I have absolutely no delayed onset muscle soreness at all-with the exception of a slight upper abdominal strain I think I could have done it all again the next day! In the past, I would have been sore for days, so I think this speaks well for the last 6 weeks of training. The ab thing is still bugging me today which is a bit frustrating- hopefully I can resolve this with more regular ab work over the coming weeks. See, even physiotherapists get hurt! Thanks for the feedback guys.....
|
|
|
Post by jason hallock on Sept 15, 2009 12:06:08 GMT -5
Hello everyone! I'm still chipping away at my comeback effort. I'd hoped to get to the Twin Cities meet on the 19th, but I'm really not in contest shape yet. Still looking forward to Esterhazy and perhaps the fall meet here in Winnipeg. I'm trying to stay very close to the Westside template-including lots of extra short workouts with the sled drag, sometimes with some of my other strongman training implements. On Wednesdays I do a power cardio/conditioning workout where I drag the sled for almost 1 1/2 miles which takes about 1/2 hour to finish-I may not be strongest lifter at the next meet, but fatigue shouldn't be a factor.....
I've been hitting the low box squats a lot and trying to use a much wider stance. I'm definitely getting stronger, but too much squatting well below parallel+wider stance +poor hip flexibility has left me with some bad hip bursitis.... Yeah Bruce, you'll be glad to know that I'm on the foam roller and stretching lots like the rest of the old guys.........Oh well......training would be way too easy if we didn't have injuries to work around now and then...On a better note, all the extra posterior chain work lately has got me deadlifting 500 lbs for a few singles without a suit or belt. I think that means progress... Keep working hard everyone- I don't get out much to lift with anyone else so I do enjoy reading your workout log entries/ posts etc.
Best of luck to anyone competing this weekend.....wishing I was ready to join you and more than a bit jealous that I won't be there too!. Jason Hallock
|
|
|
Post by thebruce on Sept 15, 2009 14:49:45 GMT -5
500 no gear at what 200 lbs??? Excellent pulling there Jay. And yes I am delighted to hear you are victimizing yourself with the evil foam roller. As well you are draggin and doin the outdoors stuff I love so much it is good for ya. Bruce
|
|
|
Post by McLifter on Sept 17, 2009 20:41:06 GMT -5
The verdict is in Jason............................your just plain strong! Nice effort on the deads! Welcome to your "middle years". Yes! You still can get stronger but recovery takes longer and you need to exercise caution as the balls to the walls/d**n the torpedoes attitude of your twenties and early thirties will be too much for various parts of your body.
McLifter
|
|